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Justice Fund. Tomasz Mraz – explanations of the former director of the department. Roman Giertych comments

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– There is a lot of evidence that Tomasz Mraz collected, not only recordings, also documents – said Roman Giertych, the defense attorney of Mraz, former director of the Justice Fund Department at the Ministry of Justice, in “Kropka nad i” on TVN24. In his opinion, this evidence constitutes “the basis for concluding that we were dealing with an organized criminal group.”

The parliamentary settlement team met on Wednesday PIS. He took part in the meeting Tomasz Mraz, former director of the Justice Fund Department at the Ministry of Justice. Mraz is one of the suspects in the investigation into the Justice Fund and is described as the “key witness” in this case who is “slandering the gangsters.” He is a customer Roman Giertychthe head of this parliamentary team.


Mraz said, among other things, that in matters relating to competition decisions under the Justice Fund Zbigniew Ziobro he was “actually the main decision maker.”

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READ MORE: What the former director of the Justice Fund Department said

Giertych: Mraz came to me himself

Giertych, who is also an MP and vice-chairman of the Civic Coalition club, spoke more about this case in “Kropka nad i” on TVN24.

He was asked if Mraz had turned himself in.

– Yes, at the beginning of this year he came to the appeal, which I always repeat, for people who have knowledge about irregularities and crimes committed in the PiS camp to contact me, for example also to Jacek Dubois, who is also his defender so that we can, using the provisions of the Code of Criminal Procedure, Article 60 of the Penal Code, i.e. the status of the so-called a small crown witness, testify and also reveal to the public what can be disclosed – he said.

Giertych: I know the content of Mraz's recordings

Giertych was asked whether he knew that – as Onet reported – Mraz recorded the leadership of the Ministry of Justice for almost two years and collected approximately 50 hours of recordings.

– There is a lot of evidence collected by Mr. Tomasz Mraz, not only recordings, but also documents, which, in my opinion, constitute the basis for concluding that we were dealing with an organized criminal group that operated under the leadership of Mr. Zbigniew Ziobro and whose goal was to steal money intended for the poorest, for those who were to benefit from the Justice Fund – replied Giertych.

When asked if he knew the content of these recordings, he replied: – Yes, I know all of them.

He added that he listened to them “for a very long time.” – I think this is important material collected in the ongoing proceedings, so I do not want to (disclose – ed.) details in this regard because I would not like to spoil the proceedings for the prosecutor's office in any way. Although, of course, this evidence was collected in my office before the proceedings even started, he noted.

Giertych: when I heard this story for the first time, I thought I was going to fall off my chair

Giertych commented in more detail on a fragment of Mraz's recording published by Onet. It concerns a conversation from 2022 between the then Deputy Minister of Justice, Marcin Romanowski, and Jakub Romelczyk, the then regional prosecutor in Warsaw, during which they determine what decision the prosecutor's office will make in one of the cases.

– When I heard this story for the first time – it was probably January this year – I thought I was going to fall off my chair. There has never been anything like this. Firstly, there should be an organized group led by the prosecutor general, i.e. the one who had the constitutional obligation to protect justice, obey the law, and implement the principles of the constitution. Moreover, for this organized criminal group to be discovered in such an incredible way – he said.

– This is shocking because we were dealing with a situation in which the prosecutor calls a potential suspect, saying, firstly, that “we will not conduct the proceedings”, and secondly, how to avoid a situation in which the judge will overturn a possible decision of the prosecutor's office to refuse proceedings – he continued.

Giertych: when I heard this story for the first time, I thought I was going to fall off my chair

Giertych: prosecutors still have a lot of work to do

– In my opinion, the evidence, and I say this with full responsibility, is sufficient to ensure that almost two thirds of these MPs from Solidarity Poland be impeached, he added. In his opinion, “the proceedings are at a very early stage.” – Prosecutors are simply overwhelmed with documentation, (…), they work very hard and I think they still have a lot to do here – said Giertych. When asked if his client also recorded Zbigniew Ziobro's conversations, the TVN24 guest replied that he did not want to reveal the details.

Giertych: At some point, Mraz realized that he was in a criminal ring

Giertych was asked why he thought Tomasz Mraz decided to record the conversations.

– In my opinion, at some point he realized that he was in a system that was simply criminal (…). He realized that he was in a very uninteresting environment and started documenting it – replied Roman Giertych.

Giertych: Mraz came to me at the first possible moment

Giertych was also asked why Mraz did not report to law enforcement earlier, since he already had the recordings at his disposal. According to the lawyer, “he came at the first possible moment when he was not in danger” of being immediately detained and arrested for revealing this type of story. – And the information provided by Mraz, saying that public money was used for political purposes, has and is now affecting this community so much that there is simply nothing to collect, commented Giertych.

Giertych on the “limits” of MPs: let them get ready

The TVN24 guest also referred to Mraz's words from his Wednesday speech, when he said that “when the budgets for a given year were established, an informal list was created recognizing the limits for individual constituency chairmen.” Mraz said that “politicians traded with this money within these limits.”

– I want to tell each of those MPs who had a limit that they should get ready. Because if he took public money and spent it on an election campaign, he was committing a crime. He robbed the poorest people to improve his electoral situation, said Giertych. Giertych was also asked about the validity of Mraz providing information to the public since he is a suspect in an ongoing investigation.

– If someone has knowledge about criminal activity and tells it in the prosecutor's office, it does not mean that they cannot talk about it. On the contrary, sometimes there is even a moral requirement to say it. And it seems to me that the director was guided by such a moral imperative that he decided to make yesterday's speech – explained the patron.

He added that the secret of the investigation concerns what someone learned about from the proceedings themselves.

Giertych: I'm correcting you, it was about two knees

Giertych also referred to Mraz's words about the “first knee of the Republic of Poland.” According to Mraz, it was about co-financing the medical facility where the PiS president underwent knee surgery Jaroslaw Kaczynski.

Journalists ask Kaczyński whose “first knee of the Republic of Poland” is

– I want to correct this information, because – from what the director told me – it was about two knees. Supposedly, there were two payments for this knee, although he only knows about the first one from hearsay, and the second one he kind of participated in, he said. – You can say that in a way, Jarosław Kaczyński saved this money for public purposes, because a machine was bought and this medical equipment is used, and the rest was embezzled. But on the other hand, it shows what kind of Bantustan we lived in, that someone wanted to please the doctors who treated the leader of the nation – added the guest of “Kropka nad i”.

When asked if he thought Tomasz Mraz would be punished by the court in any way, he replied: – I think he will get some symbolic punishment, but he can definitely sleep peacefully.

Giertych o "the first knee of the Republic of Poland": I'm straightening up, it was about two knees

Giertych: I'm correcting you, it was about two knees

Giertych: we are at a breakthrough moment

Giertych also talked about how, in his opinion, the disclosure of irregularities related to the Justice Fund will affect society's perception of PiS and Sovereign Poland.

– In my opinion, we are at a turning point – he said.

– Showing what PiS was and on the example of Solidarity (Sovereign – ed.) Poland, which was the most degenerate part of PiS, is the moment when society finally has the opportunity to hear with its own eyes, with its own ears, see how it actually happened. And all these lies, these stories, these nonsense that Ziobro and his friends told, they simply fall apart in the context of confrontation with the evidence – he continued.

He added that “people have the right to learn more about this matter.”

Giertych: we are at a breakthrough moment

Giertych: we are at a breakthrough momentTVN24

Giertych: I don't see any conflict of interest

At the end of the conversation, Giertych was asked whether he saw a conflict of interest in the situation in which he was both a lawyer and an MP. He replied that he “didn't see any.”

– I operate within the limits of the law, I am not a professional MP. I run my own office, I have the right to represent people and I use it, he replied.

Main photo source: TVN24

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