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The Cabinet Council and the Pegasus topic. Politicians’ comments

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What surprised me was that the president was not interested in this matter at all – said Left MP Wanda Nowicka in “Kropka nad i”, commenting on Prime Minister Donald Tusk’s discussion of the purchase and use of Pegasus by the previous government. Independent senator Krzysztof Kwiatkowski spoke about “three shocking facts in this case.”

On Tuesday, a meeting of the Cabinet Council was held, convened by the president Andrzej Duda. The meeting was divided into public and closed parts. During the part with the presence of the media, Prime Minister Donald Tusk said that he obliged the Minister of Justice to provide the president with a set of documents that confirm “100% the purchase and use of Pegasus in a legal and illegal manner.”

READ MORE: Donald Tusk at the Cabinet Council about documents regarding Pegasus

The matter was commented on by the guests of “Kropka nad i” – Left MP Wanda Nowicka and independent senator Krzysztof Kwiatkowski.

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Nowicka: the president was not interested in this matter at all

Wanda Nowicka said that it was “very good that Prime Minister Tusk took up this issue of Pegasus, because it is an extremely important issue.” – We need to know who eavesdropped on whom and why in Poland. And I hope this list gets revealed. But what surprised me was that the president was not interested in this matter at all, she continued.

“The topic was uncomfortable for him,” she said. She assessed that the president “is the only person in Poland” who “is not interested in who is on this list.” – If, for example, it turned out that these were people from Law and Justice on this list, as we all suspect that this is the case, it would mean that the gentlemen whom he admires and cherishes so much, Messrs. Wąsik and Kamiński, are not as crystal-clear as they are. the president says so, she said.

Krzysztof Kwiatkowski and Wanda Nowicka in “Kropka nad i” TVN24

– Regardless of whether Pegasus is convenient or inconvenient for the president, I hope that if this list appears, the president will take this matter seriously and not pretend that it is something unimportant – she added.

Kwiatkowski: we have three shocking facts in this case

Independent senator and former president of the Supreme Audit Office, Krzysztof Kwiatkowski, speaking about the purchase of Pegasus from the Justice Fund, recalled that in this case he submitted “notifications of violation of public finance discipline as the president of the Supreme Audit Office.” – I revealed the purchase of Pegasus. We managed to detect this during the budget audit at the Justice Fund, he added.

As he said, “we have three shocking facts in this case.” – The Justice Fund, which I established as the Minister of Justice, was supposed to help victims of crime, beaten women, and children who cannot get help. It is the height of impertinence to take money from victims and spend it on a system of surveillance of citizens, he said.

– Second thing, consciously breaking the law. Why? Special services in Poland have statutory provisions stating that they cannot be financed by means other than those directly transferred from the state budget, he continued.

– And the third thing, these gentlemen tried to hide it. Fortunately, in the end they are idiots, because if they had waited three months in this desire to eavesdrop and bought this system from the operating fund, then as Supreme Chamber of Control we wouldn’t reveal it. Because even the Supreme Audit Office does not control the expenditure from the operational fund, but they were in a hurry, they wanted to eavesdrop on citizens so much that they took the money from the Justice Fund – he concluded.

Nowicka: Law and Justice MPs are very concerned

As Wanda Nowicka said, “there is a lot of talk behind the scenes and it is clear that the Law and Justice MPs are very concerned and everyone is wondering whether I or not me, if me, then why” I was wiretapped. – There is also a question about the role of President Kaczyński, because it is hard to believe that he would not know about it – she added.

– As we know, in very authoritarian groups, the “top” wants to know very well what is happening “at the bottom”, she said.

She said that “the worst thing is that this whole situation shows that the services that should focus on ensuring our safety, on protecting us against various negative phenomena, primarily focused and continue to focus on the opposition, on the party fight, on political fight and they really don’t care what’s happening in the country, they don’t care about various threats and dangers.

Kwiatkowski: There were three groups of people in PiS

Krzysztof Kwiatkowski said that in this case “there were three groups of people in PiS.” – Those who knew they were eavesdropping on each other. It was no coincidence that President Kaczyński used Nokia, which was over 20 years old. This was the type of Nokia that couldn’t be overheard. It was no coincidence that Prime Minister Morawiecki and his closest colleague conferred via private e-mails, he said.

– It turned out that they most likely let the Russian services read these e-mails, because the portals that reveal these conversations are linked to the Russian secret services – said Kwiatkowski. As he added, “there was a group of people who suspected it and those like (former Minister of Agriculture in the PiS government, Jan Krzysztof – ed.) Ardanowski, who are outraged, who probably didn’t think before that as a PiS minister and politician – u may be surveilled by his club mates.

Ardanowski asked on RMF FM whether Mateusz Morawiecki was bugged with Pegasus, he replied that he didn’t know. – None of us has such knowledge. I don’t know what the list of potential wiretapped people is. However, regardless of whether politicians from the opposition or from their own political camp were eavesdropped, including Morawiecki or other people from the PiS leadership, this is absolutely unacceptable – he said.

Read more: Ardanowski about Lepper and the land scandal: Kamiński and Wąsik were punished for this

As Kwiatkowski said, “Mr. Wąsik and Kamiński, especially the former, it was said that during the first PiS (during the PiS government in 2005-2007 – ed.) he spent hours sitting in his office, listening to conversations, they could accompany us in the most intimate situations.

Kwiatkowski: I assume that the Sejm will deal with the project regarding the National Council of the Judiciary in March at the latest

On January 12, the Ministry of Justice presented draft amendment to the Act on the National Council of the Judiciary. According to it, judges, not the Sejm, will be elected members of the National Council of the Judiciary.

As Kwiatkowski commented, “we have draft laws, Minister Adam Bodnar has already prepared a draft law on the National Council of the Judiciary.” – Good design. Good because it solves the basic problem, i.e. that there will be no further nominations that will deepen the chaos in the justice system – he explained.

– A citizen comes to court and wants to be convinced that the state’s obligation to make court decisions is performed responsibly – he continued.

He added that “the bill is already in the government, but it will soon be submitted to the parliament.” – I think that from what I remember, the dates of inter-ministerial consultations, I assume that the Parliament will deal with this project in March at the latest. And I think that it is a very good proposal that judges should represent judges, and not the politicians who elect them, in this particular case only PiS MPs – he said.

Nowicka: we have awareness and a sense of responsibility

Wanda Nowicka also commented on the matter. – I think that of course we all want these laws to be implemented as soon as possible, but on the other hand we are also aware and have a sense of responsibility that whatever will be left, whatever will be created, there cannot be any mistakes. It must be truly certain and credible, and that is why this delay is needed here, she said.

– We have waited this long, so we can wait a while longer, because the solutions must be as clear as possible – she added.

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