Paweł Kowal talked to Marco Rubio. He revealed what he told the future Secretary of State

– Our role is, above all, to change the situation in Europe – said Paweł Kowal, head of the Parliamentary Foreign Affairs Committee and chairman of the Council for Cooperation with Ukraine. According to him, we are at the “bend of history”.

– From this point of view, let us think: family, our city, and above all, our country and Europe. Europe must be quickly restarted as a continent that has the capacity for industrial production, that produces ammunition, this is our role. Only then will we talk seriously in Washington, he argued.

Kowal informed that in April he talked to US Senator Marco Rubiowho is to become the new secretary of state in the administration Donald Trump. Representatives were also expected to attend the meeting German and France.

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– We said: do you realize that the budget of Ukraine at this time, for the sake of the security of the European Union and NATOis it secured by European funds? Do you realize how much money was spent on arms purchases? Do you understand that every euro spent today is saving, also potentially, your dollars in the future? – Kowal reported.

– And when the conversation was going on like this, I suddenly saw on the faces of the American interlocutors: “Oh, we didn't have this data, we didn't realize that it worked this way” – he added.

Kowal criticized the idea of ​​”easy calls to Putin”, pointing here to German Chancellor Olaf Scholz, who a few days ago he spoke by phone with the president of Russia.

– If someone comes to the idea of ​​justifying Russian revisionism, which consists in the fact that the Russians want to change the borders by force and have others recognize it, it always means the beginning of another war in Europe – warned the TVN24 guest.

He pointed out that “we don't only have Putin, we have Orban in the middle of Europe, who also dreams of changing the border by force.” – This is sickness. This is the essence of the problem that we cannot let go of. We cannot agree to this, because it directly affects Poland, he said.

Kowal said that “there is an area of ​​debate in which people say: let's stop hostilities, let's create some kind of transitional state, no one will recognize anything.” – Then we only need to consider under what conditions and on what terms Ukraine is entering into this from the point of view of our interests – he emphasized.

– Do we want to have on the other side of the border, in the east, a country that has de facto the second NATO army today, because Ukraine has built a huge army and managed to cope during these two years? It is not that Ukraine was defeated. This is why we are having this discussion, because Ukraine defended itself, with the support of the West, of course, but it defended itself, fielded an army, trained it. Do we want to have this country outside the EU and NATO after the war? Is this in our interest? Or maybe it is in our interest to accelerate talks on Ukraine's accession to NATO? Maybe it is in our interest to speed up talks on joining the EU? – Kowal wondered.

According to him, including Ukraine in Western structures would be a beneficial step from Poland's point of view, because – as he said – “there is no known case in history where any country next to which enlargement is taking place has lost as a result.”

– Maybe we need to talk like that, but we should tell the Americans one thing: even if there is a transition period, it should not be on such terms that Putin would benefit from it and have time to rearm and regroup, because there are risks here. What seems like a very simple solution to the situation today may cost twice as much tomorrow, he warned.

Kowal also addressed Trump's plan for the end war in Ukrainethe principles of which were presented in September by Vice President-elect JD Vance. He spoke about the need to create a demilitarized zone on the demarcation line between Russia and Ukraine. According to Vance, this line “would have to be heavily fortified to prevent the Russians from invading again.” In turn, Moscow “would receive from Kiev a guarantee of the neutrality of Ukraine, which remains outside NATO and such allied institutions.” He also suggested that “the conflict continues because American arms companies and financial institutions are making money on it.”

– I would answer Vance: will you take responsibility for the fact that the Russians will not invent something tomorrow, that Poland cannot do something, and finally that it cannot do something? Lithuania? – Kowal pointed out.

In his opinion, “the source and beginning of this war is that many Western countries, after the collapse of the Soviet Union, recognized that the sovereignty of some countries, including Poland, was limited to some extent.” – Ukrainians have the right to decide which alliance they belong to, there is nothing to talk about here, otherwise it is colonial thinking that will lead to nothing good, only to more wars – he said.

The President of Russia signed the decree on Tuesday expanding the list of “military threats” that may constitute grounds for the use of nuclear weapons. Previously, such a basis was only a threat to the very existence of the state.

– At every stage of this war we have seen that there are no red lines from the Cold War era. I look at it like a Polish politician who tries to see Poland's interest in it, commented Kowal.

As he explained, “Poland's interest lies primarily in ensuring that Putin does not win, that he does not have time to rearm, and that he receives a clear answer that the West does not agree to forceful border changes.”

– If I, as a Polish politician, did something different, I would sin against the voters and the history of our country. This means that I would agree to what has always been the source of war in this part of Europe – said the guest of “Fakty po Faktach”.